<x-charset iso-8859-1>I hate to introduce myself to the community this way...


I run a Mom-and-Pop contract coding biz.. just me and The Wife. Been coding
for 24 years, in business for ourselves for the last (almost) 7...

None of youse has probably heard of me. I was too busy running a small shop
in a $200M retailer, and after that, scrapping and scraping to get by. Got
into the Net relatively late, in '95... Just lurked until a year-and-a-half
ago, when I wrote my first post to any listserv/forum. Until then, I hadn't
even heard of m'self... LOL...! "They" tell me I can write pretty well...

I don't come from the Academic or Scientific community, so I don't know a
whole lot about *nix. Don't much cotton to it. I come from an environment
(a retail business) where results count more than anything else. I was both
"lucky", and unlucky, to be made head of the department after having only 6
months experience supervising people. I happened to thrive on the "mushroom
theory" of management (most of you all probably know: Put 'em in the dark,
feed 'em crap.. and watch 'em GROW...! ;-)

I've been thinking about whether to join this "fray" for a few days now.
Thought I should introduce m'self first, such as it is...

| -----Original Message-----
| From: community@lists.scriptmeridian.org
| [mailto:community@lists.scriptmeridian.org]On Behalf Of Henri Asseily
| Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:50 PM
| To: Script Meridian Community List
| Subject: Re: Winerlog moved to faster server
|
|
| All the comments are good, but as far as I can tell no one is looking at
| polarizing the guy.

Never met Mr. Winer, but corresponded with him some. Let me tell ya what I
know of him...

He's very polarized.

I know something about dealing with polar opposites. Mr. Winer (I'll call
him Dave, though we've never met) is both very ego-less, at times, and
extremely ego-driven... Much like ESR... That's how they derive such
enormous creative energies.. to over-simplify.

But the difference between being ego-less some of the time, and being
ego-less most of the time is like night and day.

I originally thought of writing Dave on this subject, because I think it's a
shame his feelings got hurt. He failed to understand that the Winerlog
folks (and I just joined this list a few days ago, so don't know who the
"players" are) are actually doing him a service to provide so much free
publicity. And in 6 months time (and to a lot of folks right now) they're
gonna look like idiots for castigating Dave, in the manner they have.

Because the Winerlog folks don't seem to be able to distiguish between the
product and the man who develops it, as others have pointed out here.
(Evidently because they got they're feelings hurt, at one time or another.)

<from soap-box>
I assume it's true that Dave has a hard time distinguising the same thing.
Because he appears to judge the validity of an idea based on who it comes
from... Not an uncommon thing for people to do, because.. well.. people are
people.
</from soap-box>



| People just expect Standard Professional Support and Interaction for
| software purchased. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, that is certainly true.

However, there's always gonna be a gap between expectations of customers and
results delivered by the supplier. I am a supplier (of custom software) and
my customers (first my end-users, and then my clients) have frequently and
sometimes brutally brought home this point to me.

What is reasonable depends on who yer askin'... (I, personally, don't
expect much for $40.)


Getting back to the points above, I've written Dave on several occasions
about the MicroShaft/DOJ settlement, and other topics. I've written him and
Robert Scoble and even John Robb quite a few times, here lately. A few
weeks before Radio was launched I talked to Robert on the phone and told him
they were pricing Radio too low.

I also wrote them, about that time, that Radio sure looks like it has all
the potential to be an end-run around the browser monopoly.

That's some pretty heady stuff...

So why launch personal attacks on Dave...? Obviously Dave can, and does,
let such heady stuff to go to his head. He said that the piece he'd written
on DIY Web Services was 20 years in the making. That's not the ego
talking.. that's the way it is when you put your whole being into your work.

So what if sometimes he thinks he has all the answers when maybe he's just
got a very large percentage of them...? Why focus on the fact that he
doesn't have all the answers he thinks he has...?


What I'm saying is that Dave has never responded to a single one of my
emails, himself, and what I've heard back from Robert has been pessimistic,
and John Robb said I was sending him more email than he could handle... But
I don't take that personally, as I just feel it's their loss. That's why I
don't launch personal attacks on the UserLand group (and hope this doesn't
come across as one either).


Now, whether UserLand puts it all together or not is a point to be resolved
in the future. I see a good possibility that Radio will be the VisiCalc to
someone else's Lotus, for reasons I said above. I stated these reasons
because I hope that it doesn't turn out to be the case, rather than to
attack Dave and the good folks at UserLand. They certainly TRY to be
responsive to their customers, and they get an awful lot of compliments for
it all to be a bunch of suck-ups talking. They don't always succeed, and
egos do come into play...

That's life...


My point in writing this is primarily to provide a framework for people to
work together on Radio, as much as possible. That doesn't mean I think
Radio is the be-all and end-all. I don't come from a *nix background, so I
see some of these things as re-inventing the wheel... But Radio IS a
HEOOOGE step forward and has the potential to be much more. It has the
potential to be the end of the browser monoply, IMV (in my view of the
world).

UserLand is how many people? Six or eight...? Don't think it's likely
they're gonna do it on their own, and Dave has complimented the Beta testers
numerous times, in awareness of that fact. (Didn't list me, though... Oh
well, shoulda contributed more, I guess...)

As I said, the personal attacks actually provide a lot of publicity, and the
negative energy supplied can actually motivate Dave...

But, on balance, it's counter-productive. If I sound like I'm on a soapbox
(besides what I indicated, myself, above) it's just because it's easier for
someone looking "from the outside", who doesn't know the players, to see the
obvious (or what appears obvious to me). Plus, I don't have any reputation
at stake in this community, as none of youse ever heard of me.


I think the best way to handle Dave is not to bother to try. Can't say as
I've had a whole lotta luck in that regard, m'self. But I still think the
principle is sound.


Dave's gonna do his own thing. He'll try to be responsive to his customers,
as best as he can. He makes mistakes, and because he's so out-front and
open his mistakes will be pretty broad and pretty plain for the whole world
to see. That's what happens when you think out loud, and write it all down.

I admire a man who's willing to take that risk. One more thing about Dave:
if you're breathing the rarified air that he is, dreaming all this stuff
up... there's a natural reaction that comes along with that (besides gettin'
corn-fused from time to time...;-) Which is paranoia... So if ya don't
have an awareness of that, you might see him as over-reacting at times. But
even without that awareness, you always have the option to assume that
you're NOT seeing those times when he DOESN'T react in anger. All that to
say: what's the point in feeding the "us and them" syndrome more than is
gonna naturally exist anyway...?!?

Does Dave make condescending remarks about people friendly to him. Sure...
(BTW, it requires great effort NOT to treat people in a condescending manner
when so many are looking at you for answers, the way people expect Dave to
come up with them.) I still remember a comment he made about Jake Savin
last summer. Jake appears to have gotten over it. Now, from my POV, even a
condescending remark beats no reply at all, so I'd say I rank pretty low on
Dave's scale... I've gotten over it. Because Dave share's all his ideas
freely, and most of them are very positive. Once in a while those comments
are negative, or condescending, but that's rare. So why beat that horse...?

Again, the reason to avoid beating up on Dave is a simple one: It would be
near-impossible to work towards making Radio successful, and yet still hope
that Dave fails... Seen it a lot in the IBM community. Folks like the
computers IBM makes, and want them to sell more of them, but they don't
really want to see IBM make money on them, and be successful. Many times
you CAN have your cake and eat it too. But these are two examples where
that just isn't possible.

Just saw David Bayly's post... If you want to berate Dave, the Winerlog is
still available for that purpose. Maybe it's less visible than it was, but
then the server is supposed to be faster now... So why use this list...?

Why not keep the focus of this list on the technical shortcomings of
Frontier/Manila/Radio...? There's plenty of 'em... Determine which issues
can be changed independent of UserLand. Keep asking for those changes that
only UserLand can provide. Keep in mind who makes the final decision about
what UserLand develops.. which is UserLand. Accept that people don't always
take criticism kindly...

And if a situation develops where UserLand can't or won't provide a change
that is "mandated" by the vast majority of UserLand developers...? Well,
Dave's already answered that one, IMV. Not in so many words, precisely.
But since he publishes the APIs, the option is always available to anyone to
start their own company and produce a knock-off of Radio. If Frontier is
that unsatisfactory, fork the process...

If not that, then accept the fact that UserLand makes the calls regarding
Frontier. Makes no difference if they say they can't or say they won't.
The same options are available in either case.

Nobody can force UserLand to take any particular suggestion, no more than I
can force anyone to hear this one.



JMO...

| ---
| Henri Asseily
| henri@bizrate.com
| co-founder & CTO, BizRate.com
|
| The dignity of a free man consists in being
| competent to govern one's self, and in knowing,
| down to the core of one's self, that one is so competent.
| Eric S. Raymond


...Raw nerve. I think ESR is a brilliant, but slightly deluded, writer. I
don't think he knows the difference between his self and his Self. Subtle
difference, so from my POV he doesn't understand the Self as much as he
seems to believe he does, nor as much as most seem to believe. I wish him
well, however, because he IS extremely charismatic, and obviously, very
brilliant.

I'm sure I've offended at least half of youse by now. It's not that I
intend to offend anyone, so much as I just don't have a reputation at stake,
so I feel free to call 'em as I see 'em...

jt
President/"Chief Cook and bottle washer"/"grunt for hire"
Ohio Computer Systems Co.
SiliCow Valley
(Columbus, OH USA)

"Have a GREAT day...! And a BETTER ONE TOMORROW~~~:-)" (sm)




|
| On Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 11:15 AM, Seth Dillingham wrote:
|
| > On 2/5/02, Steve Ivy said:
| >
| >> Thanks for the ideas, and the bit of comment sense, too. I hope that
| >> we as Frontier developers can take the high road in these situations.
| >
| > I hope so too, Steve, but evidence seems to indicate otherwise.
| >
| >> I always look to Seth as an example of how to handle Dave - he's been
| >> stepped on as much as anyone I know in the Frontier community, but he
| >> has managed to maintain a sense of dignity and respect in the midst of
| >> what I can only imagine has been immense personal frustration. (How DO
| >> you do it, Seth?)
| >
| > This is tough, I don't know exactly how to respond.
| >
| > I'm flattered that you see me as some sort of example, but that's a
| > little overwhelming too.
| >
| > My opinion -- and that's all this is -- is that too many people want to
| > polarize Dave. He's either some superhero programming visioneer god, or
| > he's the supreme leader of the underworld, the dark force that geeks
| > tell their children about when they misbehave.
| >
| > Worshipping him is no better than hating him.
| >
| > Blah blah blah... I've written a lot more, but I'm just so tired of
| > everybody wanting to talk about Dave, so I'm leaving it out.
| >
| > This is a scripter's list, not a paparazzi-wannabe list.
| >
| > (Again, just my opinion. It's not my list, either.)
| >
| > Seth
| >
|
|


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